May 11, 2004
It's hard to ignore the irony in the incident that local resident Amy Swan experienced last November during Lawrence Athletic Club's "Women's Day" event.
Swan visited LAC on "Women's Day" last fall to work out and do some shopping. She dropped her kids in the nursery, did her thing, and then returned to the baby-sitting room to pick-up her children. Her 9-month-old daughter was fussy, so Swan sat down on the couch in the nursery and breast-fed her. After Swan finished, the man who was working in the baby-sitting room approached her (in front of other parents and children) and said that he did not want his son, an older child who was also in the nursery,"exposed" to breastfeeding. He told Swan that her breasts were "her parts," and said that in the future, she needed to go across the hall to a room with a blow-up, bean bag chair in it to nurse her daughter.
The rude and non-discrete manner in which this LAC employee handled this incident upset Swan, so she wrote a letter to Richard Sells, the club's owner, explaining the incident. Sells responded with a letter that said he supported his employee's claim that Swan nursing her daughter in the baby-sitting room was not appropriate. "[Breastfeeding] in front of a man you do not know, my staff, and other members' children is probably not appropriate," Sells's letter said. "I can tell by your letter that your concerns override the feelings of others. Did you not stop to think that you may have embarrassed others by your actions?"
The letter then informed Swan of the "nursing room" that the nursery attendant had shown her. Sells described the room's furnishings as a black leather chair. Swan says that this chair was placed in the room only after her letter. Sells also said that Swan could nurse in the bathroom, which consists of two toilets and sink, or the women's locker room. "As you can see there are plenty of places a lady could go to nurse without exposing herself," Sells's letter said. After receiving this letter, Swan withdrew her membership from LAC. She now works out at Body Boutique, an all women's health club, where nursing is encouraged. In fact, Swan nurses along side the club's owner in the nursery.
O.K. folks, this is not an episode of Beavis and Butthead, so if you're saying to yourself "huh, huh, she just said 'breast'" move on to another blog. I'd like to talk about why this incident makes my skin crawl.
Although I will concede that the owner of LAC did acknowledge that breastfeeding is a "good thing," the language that he and his employee used to address this incident was oafish, and their tone was clearly one of disdain. It's not like Swan had her baby latched on while she ran on the treadmill -- she nursed her baby in the NURSERY of a HEALTH club. This was not out of line. I will also concede that Sells offered Swan a number of alternative locations to nurse, but again, his language was oafish and made it seem like nursing her baby was a dirty thing that must be done in private. And by the way, a bathroom with no chair is not an acceptable nursing option.
Breasts are everywhere in U.S. culture. Beer companies use them to sell their products. The beloved "golden arches" of McDonalds are modeled after breasts. Even the prudest of Americans love to giggle about Dolly Parton's big rack. So why is that when a woman uses her breasts for their intended purpose they suddenly become shameful and embarrassing "parts? "A nursing room is fine for women who prefer some peace or privacy, but women should not have to sequester themselves every time their baby is hungry. Breastfeeding does not "expose" anyone to anything except a child getting good nourishment. I can appreciate that a lot of us were not raised in an environment where breastfeeding was common, and one might at first be taken aback at the sight of woman nursing. However, disdain and disrespect are not proper reactions. It's high time people get over this illogical squeamishness and accept breastfeeding as a positive, or at the very least, ordinary occurrence.
Attitudes like those at LAC are troubling to enough people that 34 states have enacted legislation intended to protect the rights of nursing mothers. Kansas has no such legislation. State breastfeeding laws are founded on the assertion that breastfeeding is an important and basic act of nature. Most of the state laws say that a woman has a right to breastfeed in any place where she has the right to be, and provide that breastfeeding does not constitute indecent exposure or other criminal behavior. On a national level, The Right to Breastfeed Act, which was introduced by U.S. Rep. Carolyn Maloney of New York, protects mothers' right to breastfeed on any federal property.
Because we have no laws in Kansas to spell out the rules, the only recourse that Swan has against LAC is to take her business elsewhere. When my membership expires this summer, I will seriously consider doing the same.
Comments
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that_girl (anonymous) says...
liz, i always appreciate your writings. i love how the old smoking in the school bathroom rebelliousness has evolved into our mothering...so, how about smoking in the nursery? i wonder if that man that scolded amy watched the superbowl with his impressionable son? i can't help but think of how damaged that kid is when he opens the kitchen drawer and sees baby bottle nipples...(a not so distant relative of the dildo, right?) perhaps we should spy on that guy, he probably talks with his mouth full, or interupts others in conversation. how rude. terrorist. denying the most helpless the basic needs of food, shelter, love, and freedom. hey, just a thought, what if all of us radical girls staged a topless protest at that club? my nipples are permenantly erect from breast feeding my kid! fight the power with sex! (i am a victim of reverse psychology?)
May 11, 2004 at 1:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jester (Nick Spacek) says...
Interesting note... when I worked downtown, there was a woman who came into the bakery where I was employed. She, like many other women, would breastfeed while sitting on the bench in the lobby. I, along with everyone who worked there, had no problem with that.
It was when she got up from the bench and asked for a couple of cookies while in the process of breastfeeding that I was mildly appalled.
I'm all for breastfeeding, and know of the positive effects it promotes between mother and child. However, there's something mildly off-putting about someone asking for food while their entire breast is exposed. Is it wrong for me to want her to wait until she's done feeding her child?
May 11, 2004 at 1:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mitzibel (Misty Nuckolls) says...
From what I've seen, the vast majority of women are able to breastfeed without ever exposing more flesh than most evening wear. My Baptist cousin, who would slit her wrists before wearing a sleeveless dress to church or a bikini to the beach, has no problem breastfeeding her son in the presence of male relatives and strangers--because after just one month of motherhood, she has the act down to a science. I realize that there are a lot of mamas, especially in this town, who take great pride in whipping out the entire udder to feed their young'un, but for the most part, women manage to breastfeed discreetly and with a minimum of exposure. So I don't think it's the actual exposing of flesh that has these idiots up in arms, it's the very act itself, which I find completely flabbergasting. The LAC employee apparently prefers that his son grow up believing that the breast's natural functions are limited to providing their owners with free drinks at the bar and buying the mastermind behind the "Girls Gone Wild" a few more beachhouses.
May 11, 2004 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mitzibel (Misty Nuckolls) says...
". . . .the mastermind behind the 'Girls Gone Wild' videos. . . ." I meant to say. Sheesh.
May 11, 2004 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MAMAT (anonymous) says...
Here here. Back in the late 70's (when I was the first in my family to breast feed - starting the trend ) I breast fed my son until he was weaned, compltely, at 18 months. I never had to show one tiny bit of flesh to do so. There are tons of ways to be discreet but get the job done. And yet, I too met with horror and shock from folks who figured out what I was doing. Most of the bad reactions came from males (who were not at all offended to see a naked breast, in private or in large groups at a titty bar), but a few older females were equally shocked to "see" (nothing was exposed) me using that part of my body for it's intended purpose. I pity anyone who is so hung up about sex and body parts to think a child should not see a woman breast feeding. God forbid the child know that breasts have any other purpose but to be oogled and secretly coveted. Maybe if more women stood up and made fun of these stupid people, they'd become the ones breaking taboos, and not the intelligent women who know that feeding a baby in this way is good and healthy, for all concerned! It's one silly (and scarey) world we are living in folks....where Janet exposing a nipple, and not long enough to be really seen, and a woman nursing in public (and not really showing skin) is more horrifying to folks then the soft core porn and violence against women that now passes for advertising and/or music videos...
May 11, 2004 at 5:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
randerson7000 (anonymous) says...
I'm a 30 year old guy and now live in Maryland. It would be much better for our culture if women breast fed in public. It is one of the few things that I don't have a problem labeling 'natural'. It shouldn't be so shocking that Jester in the bakery should feel uncomfortable. Rather it ought to be the norm. I do feel for Jester though about seeing the whole boob out there being suckled on. It makes for a hard decision for a guy....look at the boob or the face asking for some cookies. It also makes you think does she want me to look at the boob or get the cookies. Anyway that's my two cents.
May 11, 2004 at 6:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
leslie (Leslie vonHolten) says...
Down with LAC! A good friend of mine, a former employee, says they are also completely awful to work for. Interesting how the folks who had "Happy Birthday Jesus" on their marquee through the holidays would be shaming a woman for something most of us consider a blessing.
For those new or expecting moms out there who may be reading this, I do want to stress that events like this are disgusting but SO RARE. I breast fed my 2 babies all over Lawrence (and from Chicago to Seattle) and never once, not one single time, had a problem or a negative comment from anyone. And I never did the "discrete" blanket covering or anything. Some guys would avoid eye contact while I was doing it, but I think for them it was a show of respect, and I never once felt judged.
May 11, 2004 at 9:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
callahan (Kim Callahan) says...
Excellent blog. Before I clicked on it, though, when all I could see was the headline, I thought the LAC in "why I think the folks at LAC are a bunch of boobs" referred to the Lawrence Arts Center, a sad acronym coincidence, because the folks at the arts center are not boobs.
May 12, 2004 at 7:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
liz (Liz Weslander) says...
that girl - you know "nurse ins" - where a group of mothers go to the place in question and nurse en masse - are a very common form of protest for these kind of incidents, not exactly the topless protest you proposed, but perhaps a compromise that would be within the bounds of the law (or lack there-of)
Jester - on the cookie ordering issue. On a very practical level, children, espicially infants, can nurse upwards of 45 minutes at a stretch. If this woman had another kid in tow who wanted a snack, maybe she couldn't wait until the baby was done to order. Or maybe she was hungry herself and didn't want to wait. Also, if her baby was actually nursing, there is no way her entire breast was exposed. I will say that children are known to "unlacth" without warning, which could cause the entire breast to be exposed. Also, at 6 months and older, babies can be pretty squirmy and prone to playing with and twisting their mother's shirt into all sorts of revealing arrangments. Again, I'm addressing this from a very practical angle. However, I do know that there are women who just aren't into the whole discreet nursing thing for more philosophical reasons, and I urge someone of that ilk to address the issue. I do know that a lot of the nursing laws that I mentioned say that even women who show the nipple and areola during breastfeeding are not guilty of indecent exposure.
May 12, 2004 at 9:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
that_girl (anonymous) says...
admittedly, i was being reactionary. the truth is, that when i had to publically feed my son, i was very discreet. my primary motivation was to avoid oppurtunistic male voyeurs. breast feeding does not feel sexy. the hormones released are akin to happy valium....so there is some vulnerability for moms. in light of that, i can't imagine how awful amy felt....what a buzzkill!
May 12, 2004 at 10:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SAHM2tylrnathan (anonymous) says...
Great blog Liz. Ditto Mitzibel! Hmmm. I wonder if said LAC employee is equally offended by tight fitting spandex exercise tops that change the color of a breast but do nothing to hide its anatomy? What about low cut exercise wear? If boobs are offensive when they are feeding a child, wouldn't they be offensive all the time? Unless of course it really is the FEEDING issue that is the problem? SHEESH! I agree that you ought to do your level best to keep the jugs from hitting people in the face (except the kid, of course), but come on! If we are gonna raise the babes ourselves, give them the best nutrition available, are we not allowed to leave the house and are we forced to feed a baby in a place where we don't even want to sit down without a layer of tissue paper under us? Grow up guys. The last thing a bfing mom is trying to do is turn you on or seduce your kid. We are trying to feed a hungry baby so it will stop bothering you! I was a horrible klutz at public bfing, so I kept it to a minimum. But I bet most people have seen more bfing moms than they know because some are sooooo good at it! I never mastered the latch-and-walk! LOL
May 12, 2004 at 10:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
liz (Liz Weslander) says...
Yeah, I didn't have room to put that in the blog, but I've always been under the impression that LAC is THE place to go to see lots of perky boobs barely covered by spandex. Ironic indeed.
May 12, 2004 at 10:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cooksfood (anonymous) says...
Great blog! I, too have fallen victim to this before...in a different city though. Lawrence seems like such an open minded town but in reality I guess its just like any other town. I was seriously considering the LAC for membership to get myself back into shape, however, I can assure you that after reading your blog and the comments after, I have changed my mind? I wonder how much Body Boutique is....? Keep up the breastfeeding Liz, the benefits it provides for your child override the ridiculous social taboo it seems to stir up!
May 12, 2004 at 11:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jester (Nick Spacek) says...
To sum up... nope, no other kids. The cookie was for herself.
And you all pretty much answered my unasked question (that being "could she cover up just a bit more?"). I wasn't going to ask if she should have covered up, for fear of being flamed out. I had thought that most women who breastfeed generally don't expose much. This woman was wearing a halter top, and there wasn't much covered at all.
May 12, 2004 at 4:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
liz (Liz Weslander) says...
Actually, my girls are three and a half and haven't nursed for some time. Having twins made public nursing pretty difficult, so I've never had this sort of thing happen to me. I did get a lot of second guessing from my kids' grandparents as far as nursing went, though. There was this assumtion on their part that my kids couldn't possibly get enough nourishment from breast milk (although with two it did take just about every hour of my day to do so). I also think that they felt cheated out of their bonding time when I was always the one to feed them. They meant well, but it was one of many factors that discouraged me from nursing longer than I did. A lot of people have a lot to learn.
May 12, 2004 at 4:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
liz (Liz Weslander) says...
that was in response to cooksfood, by the way.
May 12, 2004 at 4:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
milesma (anonymous) says...
I am so amazed at the level of ignorance demonstrated by both the employee and the owner of LAC. To be discouraged from doing the healthiest thing possible for your baby by those who profess to be proponents of a healthy lifestyle is beyond ironic. This matter needs to be addressed in an even more public forum. (Are you listening, Journal World?!) Obviously these "gentlemen" have their own issues regarding breasts that have absolutely nothing to do with providing nourishment for babies. I feel sorry for the employee's son, who I hope will be able to rise above his father's caveman attitude and grow up without the same distorted view of breastfeeding. Even more disturbing to me is the tone of the letter written by the owner. To suggest that a mother who chooses to feed her hungry baby without attempting to balance on a toilet seat is less than a "lady" is appalling. Perhaps he should try eating his lunch off the bathroom floor and see how he likes it. I applaud Amy for standing her ground and withdrawing her membership, which I will now also be doing. What's the number to Body Boutique?!
May 13, 2004 at 8:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grammaflorida (anonymous) says...
I am a mother of 7 and a gramma of 5; all beautiful kids, all of whom live in Lawrence. Part of the reason my kids are so beautiful is because they got a belly full of breast milk whenever and WHEREVER they needed it for anywhere from one to two years of their lives. This is just another case of LIBERALS chipping away at our freedoms in the name of morality, which is something I have never known a liberal to know anything about either!( by the way liberal means FREE , talk about ironic!!) My children will always be important than public opinion. If we don't give our children what they need despite what the pervs are fantisizing about.. I can guarentee you none of them are going to..not one in the whole damned village!! Breastfeeding is beautiful, right, and good. Whether any one likes it or not!! The truth is not damaged by unbelief!
So Mammas.. when in doubt..pull them out!!
May 13, 2004 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
liz (Liz Weslander) says...
Milesma, this website is actaully part of the "World Company" which also runs the Journal World. I did try to pitch this as a story for the paper, as I've done some freelance in the past. I got no response, which I took for lack of interest on the editor's part. I think that they made an error in judgement.
May 13, 2004 at 10:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cooksfood (anonymous) says...
Its really sad that societal pressures force us to stop breastfeeding early on, its the reason i stopped...I found it impossible to work and breastfeed. I couldnt pump, locked in a bathroom stall, sitting on a toilet. But thats what was provided for me. <----- in response to Liz.
May 13, 2004 at 11:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
doc (anonymous) says...
Great blog, Liz. You kick ass.
May 13, 2004 at 11:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dropkickjeffy (anonymous) says...
Great food for thought as always, Liz.
I might get crucified for this response, but...
The LAC's defiant reaction is appalling - but not a surprise.
My wife and I have always had a long-running, jokey debate about public breastfeeding. (And we don't even have kids yet.) She says a woman should be able to do it anytime, anywhere. I've never been as comfortable about it as she is - and I know that's because I'm an American male who has been conditioned to see breasts as purely sexual. That's a hard thing to overcome, even for someone who is educated and not a neanderthal.
I understand the benefits of breastfeeding, and think every child should be BFed. But I must admit I still don't totally understand how women could be baffled at men's confusion over the whole thing. The average man likes breasts, and the average woman keeps hers hidden from view most of the time. Breastfeeding obliterates that - suddenly they're out and everything we've learned - breasts are sexual, it's not polite to look at them - doesn't apply. There they are for everyone to see. When women breastfeed in front of me, I'm always shocked at first, then I get used to it. It's difficult to reprogram the American male brain - we're bombarded with sexual imagery all the time, much of it involving breasts. I hope this doesn't sound like a copout, but it's hard to overcome preconceived notions about sexuality.
I know an Orthodox Jewish woman who follows the custom of not making contact with any man other than her husband. She covers her head and body at all times. But the other day at an engagement party, there she was in the middle of everything, breastfeeding her baby, taking no pains to cover anything up. I was amazed - here is a woman whose body cannot be seen or touched and yet she has no problem with breastfeeding in a roomful of strangers. That's when I realized I, as a man, would never fully understand breastfeeding.
Soon my wife and I will have kids, and I assume I'll be forced to reassess my opinion (i.e., get over it).
Thanks for bringing an interesting topic to light.
May 13, 2004 at 11:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lolo (anonymous) says...
Having been a member of LAC for several years, I can say I have seen more skin and "parts" there than at any other club in town... and I'm not saying that's a bad thing (we're too uptight about nudity in this country, anyway). It is simply all the more reason why the owner and employee's reaction was inappropriate, considering what they are "exposing" themselves to on a daily basis just walking in the door of that place. It's obvious that there are other things going on here, that the men are uncomfortable for reasons we may not understand... but that doesn't excuse them from their behavior. They messed up... everyone does sometimes... but a proper apology is certainly in order, and Mr. Sells did not give Amy Swan even that much. Rather, he shamed her for an act that is truly natural, one that he doesn't have to agree with, but as a busines owner in Lawrence, KS (a place that stands up for our rights, damnit) he should really have known better than to ignite this fire. Mr. Sells, I have moved my busines to Body Botique, as well. Why give my money to a place that does not stand for my most fundamental beliefs: that we need to do all we can to help each other get along a world full of violence and war, not shame one another for acts that are natural and done out of love. Next time, just a simply "I'm sorry" will do, and keep your conservative views and "oafish" opinions to yourself. I'm outta there.
May 13, 2004 at 12:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
liz (Liz Weslander) says...
cooksfood, many of the laws in other states that I mentioned require employers to provide a suitable place and ample time for breastfeeding moms to pump, so your expereince is unfortunatley not unique.
jeffy, thanks for the brave and insightful comment. Like I said, I can appreciate that breastfeeding can be a little difficult to handle for anyone who has not been around it much, and I can also see how it might confuse men a bit. However, this situation would have been a great oppurtunity for this LAC employee to simply explain to his son that a lot of kids drink milk from their mom's breast when they are little. Kid's can accept these sort of facts with little trouble. Further, the more young kids see breastfeeding , the less likely they are to grow up being so confused by it. Also, your story about the Orthodox Jewish woman strikes me as a person (perhaps a culture?) who is simply able to completely separate the functional and sexual aspects of breasts. In an ideal world, we could all do this.
May 13, 2004 at 5:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amylou (anonymous) says...
Hey everyone-Amy here. I just wanted to thank you all for your support! I have been sitting on this for a while now and thought it was finally time for LAC to be "exposed." I think as mothers we need to stand up for our rights when incidents such as this happen so it doesn't happen again in LAWRENCE of all places. Keep on nursing ladies, don't let ignorant men like these stop you from FEEDING your babies whenever and wherever necessary. Don't you think it's time Kansas had some laws to protect nursing mothers? 34 other states think so...Oh, and the number for Body Boutique is 749-2424, they just opened a new beautiful women's gym, salon, and spa and they would welcome you and your nursing baby anytime!!
May 13, 2004 at 5:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lori (anonymous) says...
As for covering up while nursing in public...well sometimes that isn't possible. Some children do not allow you to do that, and if you try to cover them up, they get all the more active and draw more attention to themselves. And frankly, most of us who nursed for any period of time just become so used to the act, you forget that others around you might not be so used to seeing someone walk around and carry on with life while nursing. If I had sat down and not done anything else while I was nursing, I would have been permanently attached to the chair for several years of my life. Not fun.
I teach breastfeeding classes at work. I always tell my moms and dads, if it is an appropriate place to give a baby a bottle, it is an appropriate place to nurse. That's all there is to it.
There are many places in this town where I have nursed and where the owners/managers went out of their way to let me know I was welcome to do this. Wheatfields, Free State, Miltons, Au Marche, the Library, the Merc, Dr Hay's office (he had no problem with me nursing my daughter throughout my entire dental exam...but he's a dad with a lot of kids who were breastfed), Liberty Hall, La Prima Tazza. All of those places had at least one employee who made a positive comment about breastfeeding, adn how it was a welcome happening.
Whenever I see a mama out breastfeeding in public, especially if she seems a little uncomfortable, I always try to look her in the eye and say something like "I love to see those healthy breastfed babies." Just to give her a little support.
And for those of you who do want to nurse discreetely (not that you need to, but if youwant to), try a sling. I used a rebozo, and it was freaking awesome and easy.
May 13, 2004 at 10:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MAMAT (anonymous) says...
Not to start a big fight, but why not be discreet about it, if you can? Unless you have an exhibitionistic side to your character.... Bfeeding is natural and good. But so is urinating, and I really don't want to see men whipping out their scholongs to do it! I realize that some kids get real busy when nursing, and fling off a blanket, shirt, or hand or other object designed to keep the "offending" breast from publicly being flashed. I think breasts are gorgeous, but it's impossible to re-train 100% of society into seeing them as sex toys one moment, and fountains of healthy food the next. That kind of duality can cause mental whiplash. I endorse any woman's choice to bfeed (like I said before, my kid was 100% breast fed - no bottles - until he was weaned at 18 months). But why the need to fling out a tit, knowing (or perhaps that's the issue - some folks don't know?) that there are still some taboos about publicly displaying those lovely things? The need to create a scene or make a statement should not supercede the need to get that kid fed; nor should the need to feed the kid mean that all public civility or politness goes out the window. I am not a huge fan of any laws; passing a law to (attempt) address every perceived inequity is a real good way to make government become completely meaninginless. (See e.g. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - by Robert Heinline). What would be very nice to see is RESPECT for individual choices and individuals. I breast fed my boy EVERYWHERE (including the front row of church), but I did not insist that everyone approve of it, tolerate it, or look at it. If someone had a problem with it or me, I figured that was THEIR ignorance & problem. I didn't have to make it mine! Moving business away (as well as yourself) is a GREAT way to make the point. Let's support choices and civility. A world full of well fed babies, and classy moms who know they're doing the right thing for their child (but who can walk away from stupid people with a knowing smile) could eventually change the face of the world!
May 14, 2004 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lori (anonymous) says...
Sorry, got cut off on my post. Couldn't finish.
Just two more things:
Yea Amy for standing up for yourself and your baby. I agree, Body Boutique and it's owners are incredibly supportive and just generally nice ladies.
Two---
Let me explain the cookie incident (this could have been me, though the timing is wrong) from a nursing mom's perspective. It takes about 800 extra calories a day to nurse a baby. 500 more per day than to be pregnant. That's alot of extra food. Plus at least an extra quart of water per day.
You nurse all the freaking time. You sit down with a hungry baby to nurse, and *then* you see the cookies. Mmmm, they look good. Hopefully babe will be done soon. Come on, hurry up, the chocolate chip looks especially...whoa, peanut butter, too? Oh my god, hurry up already! I'm so hungry. Oh, cookies, cookies, cookies. Come on, honey, aren't you full yet? Pop off, come on. No, don't cry, okay, you go ahead and finish. I can wait. Maybe. Damn, those are some fine looking cookies. Cookies. Cookies. Cookiescookiescookiescookies.
You just sometimes get so damn hungry when you are nursing. If it takes carrying a nursing babe across the room and ordering while your babe eats, who cares, because you are so hungry, you would dance naked with Heminway on Mass Street, if only you could get the freakin cookies. The thing with a nursing session; you never know if it is a quick slurp, or an hour long feeding frenzy. So, the light at the end of the tunnel doesn't appear, and if the cookies are looking mighty fine, and all indications are that the babe isn't going to finish anytime soon, you are just going to have to go over there and get yourself some damn cookies.
Been there, done that.
Lori
May 14, 2004 at 11:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
itsoffthehook (anonymous) says...
I have 9 brothers and sisters and when ever my mom would want us to stop watching tv and go outside she would sit right down in the middle of the living room and start breast feeding. We would be out of there in a flash. The coolest thing about breast feeding is that the hormones get passed on to the baby and even baby boys can start lactating. My mom showed this to me on my baby brother. I thought that was the coolest thing I had ever seen at the age of 9. Just thought I would throw in a males perspective of breast feeding.
May 14, 2004 at 11:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lazz (anonymous) says...
Clearly, any man who would dare disagree with you and your friends, or not share your level of comfort with public breast-feeding, is an oaf, and any argument he makes must be classified as oafish.
And clearly, this is yet another lifestyle choice that will be solved with more regulations and laws and government behavior codes.
Get over yourself already. Give a man the right to have his opinion -- OPINION -- that breastfeeding in certain non-private venues is perhaps inappropriate. Give yourself the option, which your friend has exercised and you are considering, of taking your business elsewhere if you think have been treated poorly.
But save yet-another reliance on codification of simple civil behavior, and, if it's not too painful, limit your pretentious name-calling. Just because Rick Sells doesn't agree with every last little tiny point you make, that doesn't necessarily make him an oaf. Sounds to me like he was acting as a responsible business owner who responded promptly to a concern expressed to him by a patron, and tried to balance his employee's concerns while also offering his patrons appropriate options. I also fail to see how improving the furniture in the nursing room -- putting in a nice comfortable leather chair -- makes him a bad person or the situation worse.
He presented options and a solution, and for this he lost business and is publically labeled an oaf -- and not given an opportunity to defend himself against your public accusations.
May 14, 2004 at 1 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
erinjones (anonymous) says...
i often wonder if the typical (i.e. anti-bfeeding) response of some males (certainly not all, but too many) has more to do with women embracing their breasts as their own than with the squirm-factor most men describe. when a woman breast feeds she is accepting her breast as a part of her body, created for her and for her child, and not, at that precise moment in time, for men.
in our society we women are socially trained to use our breasts as man-grabbing devices, and men are trained that this is the right and natural order of the world. hell, i'll admit to a little superficial discomfort when suprised by a bare breast in the produce section, but i get over it. i'm sure it must be hard for some men--and women--to distinquish their pamela anderson posters from the nursing mothers they are forced to interact with, but discussions like this definitely help.
May 14, 2004 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lori (anonymous) says...
>>>>>>The coolest thing about breast feeding is that the hormones get passed on to the baby and even baby boys can start lactating. My mom showed this to me on my baby brother. I thought that was the coolest thing I had ever seen at the age of 9.<<<<<<
I don't think that is quite accurate. Some babies will have engorgment of the mammary glands a couple of days or so after birth, and may even secrete a psuedo-milk (called witch's milk, I don't remember what the official medical term for it is), but that is related to maternal hormones prior to birth. Unless your mom was on some mega hormones (like birth control pills) I'm not sure that it is possible for normal maternal hormones to induce lactation in an infant. It is definately not common. I work with mothers and infants, and I have never seen this. But practices have changed, and if your mom took birth control pills, I suppose that could have happened. I'm not sure though. I'll have to look that one up.
However, antibodies *are* passed through the breastmilk. Babies who are breastfed basically get a big immunization every time they nurse, something that their formula-fed counterparts do not receive. That is one reason why breastfed babies are sick less often than formula fed babies. Formula fed children have to develop their immune system on their own, with little help, only the immunities that are present due to actually growing in the mama. Breastfed children get much more help developing and refining their immune system.
I'm not trying to give offense or anything, itsoffthehook. I think it is totally cool that your childhood included a mom who breastfed frequently, and that you had some positive, if funky, experiences with it.
May 14, 2004 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
itsoffthehook (anonymous) says...
hey I was nine at the time and I saw milk come out of my baby brothers nipples. It was cool. Maybe it was from pre-birth hormones, how should I know. Ill ask my brother he's a doctor and I'm babysitting his kid tonight. I think he is thinking about starting a blog on here where people can ask medical/ethical questions. Oh and I just heard of a new study that kids that grow up in homes with pets are less likley to develop allergies.
May 14, 2004 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
liz (Liz Weslander) says...
I think it's pretty clear by my responses to jester and dropkickjeffy, and hopefully to you, that I'm not out to label any body who disagrees with me an oaf. However, I do think that someone who insinuates that a woman who breastdfeeds her baby in a nursery is "exposing" herself and is not a "lady" is using oafish language.
As for the laws, I appreciate the political/philosphical view that law and regulations are not the solution to many problems. However, I think that a law stating that breastfeeding does not constitute indecent exposure would eliminate a legal grey area. I also think that laws that make the workplace condusive to breastfeeding mothers would encourage more working mothers to breastfeed their children longer, which is a good thing. Sorry if that OPINION is one that warrants me needing to get over myself.
As for the chair argument, I'll admit it was pretty weak, but I was trying to demostrate that Rick was not fully admitting that perhaps the conditions of the nursing room which Amy had complained about were, in fact, inadequate at the time of her complaint.
Finally, if Rick would like to defend himself, I encourage him to come join this discussion or write a letter to the editor of the Journal World.
May 14, 2004 at 3:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lazz (anonymous) says...
liz, i'll tell ya that i think your blog raises an important issue,and if there are mothers out there who feel our city, or our society, discourage them from nursing their infants, then certainly that's an important matter for us to collectively consider. i wish all of us could see it as the natural, wonderful thing it is. but also women's breasts, in our culture's constructs of sexuality, are an integral part of the sexual being ... if a man (or woman) were to inappropriately touch a woman's breast, that's a very serious crime. comments about breasts could cost a man (or a woman) his job. to stare or even glance at a woman's breasts is obviously considered rude and offensive, yet many women go to great lengths to enhance and emphasize.
so it's a bit disingenuous to expect that every single person you might encounter in day to day business will be able to be comfortable with breasts being exposed in public, even for the natural task of nursing an infant. and if it makes a guy uncomfortable, he might respond with words or actions that are less than graceful. just because a guy takes a job as a health-club employee, or owns a health club, doesn't necessarily mean he'll be able to respond delicately and precisely to a situation that can catch him by surprise or make him uncomfortable.
i absolutely respect, and support, your desire to see women's rights to feed their infants nourished and protected. i think it is especially important in a work place, as you say, that if women are made to feel uncomfortable about this, there should be some recourse.
but as one of the other respondents says, she's never had a problem, not once. and i think it's fair to say that even if you disagree with rick and his employee,it's possible to say, you know,they weren't really being terrible about it, they simply didn't respond perfectly. and while they did not respond exactly as you had hoped, they did offer an option, and when it was made clear to them the option was not good enough, they improved it. seems to me there's a good compromise happening in there somewhere ...
so in light of the anti-smoking lifestyle crusade, i'm just responding with a sense of, if there's a problem, let's solve it where it happens, let's try to talk to people as people and say,hey, you know, give this some thought, she's nursing a child, it should not make you uncomfortable. please remember that very few men will ever see a woman nursing a child outside of their own home. men who aren't fathers might never have seen it, or only fleetingly. so hey, it catches them a bit off guard. maybe they say or do something admittedly "oafish." but maybe these problems could be a cause for education rather than legislation.
and to be entirely clear on this: i support your stance on this, i support the notion that women should be completely comfortable to nurse their infants as they deem proper. and when somebody is less than graceful in response, encourage them to reconsider. i just think the chances are more than good that that person has simply been caught off guard, or is a bit uncomfortable in an unexpected encounter, and not looking to be an oaf or a clod or a discriminator.
does that make any sense?
more peace, more love, more understanding, less city commission and state legislature .....
May 14, 2004 at 5:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SAHM2tylrnathan (anonymous) says...
Lori, ROTFLMAO!!!!! It's a good thing Homer Simpson couldn't have breastfed! I can remember nursing sessions when my throat went so dry I could hardly stand it, but with my inability to do the latch and carry, I was just stuck until the kid was happy! I always made sure I had that giant cup from the hospital full and next to the bed before I settled in again. And now I have to go find a cooooooookieeeeeee!
May 14, 2004 at 10:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amylou (anonymous) says...
To lazz-
Let's keep in mind here that one of the "options" you are talking about was to have me go in the bathroom and "shut the door". The only place to sit would be the toilet, of course. Tell me how you would feel if someone told you to go in the bathroom, sit on the toilet, and shut the door to feed your daughter a bottle or any food for that matter. THE BATHROOM is NOT the place and not AT ALL an acceptable option, in fact, it is degrading. I do appreciate your opinion, but I want you to realize that the letter was far from appropriate and when an incident such as this happens, sometimes opening it up for discussion and making people aware of the problem is necessary to make some changes. Unfortunately, sometimes the city/state does have to step in because there isn't enough "peace, love, and understanding" to bring about change.
May 14, 2004 at 10:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mitzibel (Misty Nuckolls) says...
itsoffthehook: Tell your brother his blog idea would KICK ASS.
May 15, 2004 at 2:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mitzibel (Misty Nuckolls) says...
Has anyone but me noticed that this particular blog seems to inspire some of the most thoughtful and intelligent discussions on this site?
May 15, 2004 at 2:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jacqueline (anonymous) says...
I feel the owner and his employee handled the situation very badly. It makes me question if they apply the slogan "The customer is always right" at all and, if so, is it applied only to men? As for the owner's suggestion of using the bathroom to nurse in, I've heard several medical professionals implicitly forbid this as an option for nursing mothers and babies! Need we guess why? I suggest the owner get better educated on the subject of nursing as well as providing quality customer service, then pass the education on down to his employees.
May 15, 2004 at 10:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
americle (anonymous) says...
I think we need to organize a "nurse in" at LAC -- let's get this issue out in public, because the more we do the more people will be educated about it.
May 16, 2004 at 6:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
funkdog1 (anonymous) says...
dropkickjeffy and lazz: just some comments from a woman who was until recently a breastfeeder to explain how and why nursing in public happens. you'll just have to take my word for it that i know what i'm talking about. i'm not a woman who is secure in my appearance; there's no way i would ***ever*** "whip 'em out" normally---but something changes you completely when you have a baby. when that baby starts crying to be fed you are overcome with an overwhelming need to respond, offen to the exclusion of your own, and others', comfort. (i would go so far as to call it a very basic, evolutionary response.) in addition to the very real psycological need to feed the baby NOW, there are physical manifestations: your boobs will actually start to leak milk just at the sound of the baby's cries. having said all that, i would **always** ask people around me if they were okay with me breastfeeding (descretely, with baby's face and my boob mostly under my shirt) and i was pleased to find that i never once received a negative reaction from anyone. breastfed babies need to be fed much more often than formula-fed babies--sometimes every hour. i also found the idea of breastfeeding in a bathroom to be totally repugnant. i'd do it if i had to, but if i had to choose between a bathroom and a restaurant full of people, i'd choose the latter. after all, no one would ask an adult to eat in the shitter, and you just don't want your baby to, either. now that i'm not breastfeeding, the boobs are firmly back in the dark and will stay there.
dropkickjeffy, if and when you and your wife have kids, and if she decideds to breastfeed, believe me, a few hours after your first kid is born you will TOTALLY understand.
by the by, i'm not trying to be mean to either of you guys, i'm just trying to impart some first-hand info...
May 16, 2004 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lazz (anonymous) says...
certainly there's much education that would be helpful for almost any man, and these comments are certainly helpful for me to become more empathetic. i can certainly see that when nursing a child, now very often means now. clearly this should not be a problem. clearly, sometimes it is. which is sad. perhaps we will become more mature and less prude about this. (then again, considering our culture's track record on such matter, i would not say the chances are good for that happening.)
by the way, I agree completely that suggesting a bathroom as an alternative site for nursing your infant is entirely wrong. the options i was referring to were the nursing room with the leather chair.
but i really did not intend to, or want to, get into a discussion of the details about what LAC did or proposed.
In general, I appreciate your efforts at education. They have helped me. And perhaps more of that, when the subject arises, would be more helpful than a law or regulation.
thanks for enlightening discussion.
May 17, 2004 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hoemade (anonymous) says...
Amy,
I am writing to let you know how proud of you I am and to encourage the LJW to present this issue to the public for the health of our community. It is sad that one of the healthiest things we can do for our children causes discomfort for so many people. The last few years there has been an explosion in the amount of cow's milk allergies (as well as many other food allergies, auto-immune disorders, autism, ADD) and the medical community has stated that a leading cause of the cow's milk allergy is the introduction of cow's milk too early in life. Soy is also becoming a common food allergen which is in many of the formulas made. It will be a good day when people have as much discomfort with a baby being fed milk fit for a calf or "milk" made by a chemical company rather than human milk that was intended for little humans. I am not judging those that are uncomfortable with breast feeding because our society has set the perfect stage for this discomfort, however, I would ask the LJW bring this issue up to our community so that we may address an issue that may possibly be affecting the health of our children. If our discomfort is affecting the health of our children then it is our resposiblity to intelligently look at our beliefs and adjust them accordingly.
May 18, 2004 at 5:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shorttrees (anonymous) says...
Liz- love the blogs, keep it up! Ran into an interesting article on the Discovery Channel site the other day, talking about how exposing the female breast was once a sign of virtue, and socially acceptable at times even into the 1800's. Link follows.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/2
0040517/breasts.html?ct=5532.97251303778
May 18, 2004 at 11:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
liz (Liz Weslander) says...
Shorttrees, that was fun to read. I find it interesting that during some of the "breast bearing" periods it was actually offensive to show your legs or shoulders. It just goes to show you how much the sexualization of breasts is conditioned by social factors.
May 19, 2004 at 9:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nordicrabbit (anonymous) says...
As a breastfeeding mom and an LAC member, I find this all very interesting, although I seem to have found this conversation late. I will say that Mr. Sells' wife gave me special consideration when it came to breastfeeding. I won't go into details as I would like to remain anonymous to her. I don't know if she breastfed or not, but she seemed to understand its importance. This does not absolve her husband's behavior, but I think it's interesting anyway. Is a broader public forum is a good place to take this (LJW?)? Maybe the city council could make it a local issue? I have done it in a bathroom at DFW and my kid liked it less than I did! Never again!
May 19, 2004 at 10:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
thetom (anonymous) says...
Interesting blog. I believe breastfeeding should be accepted anywhere and everywhere mothers and babies find themselves. I tell you, though, the neanderthal in me is going to do a double take every time. Thats one of the reasons I don't have a job at a 'nursery'.
My wife is a regular at LAC and our two kids have been going to the nursery for 2 years. For the most part, the people have been great. The bonehead that caused this ruckus is probably the same one that gave my 3 yr old a hard time for thumbsucking (future blog?). My wife basically told him not to worry his pretty lil head.
I'm sorry this happened because if more women were comfortable breastfeeding in public, we'd all get more accustomed.
May 23, 2004 at 9:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lovekids (anonymous) says...
Amy,
I too am proud of you for standing up for this issue! Mr. Sells, his male employee, and even Lazz need to see this for what it really is, which is a very basic and very important human right.
Not to be confused with other "bodily functions" which MAMAT above referred to such as "urinating" - this is "NOURISHING OUR CHILDREN!" In most cultures, much like the Madonna and Child, the sight of a mother suckling an infant at the breast is considered a very sacred and beautiful sight. Our society has gone too far in the wrong direction when it comes to the "appreciation" for what the female breast is all about. I nursed my infants in the 1970's and rarely received any kind of negative reactions. Also, my mother says that it was very common in the 1950's for a mother to nurse her baby in a public place such as a city bus or in a park. People were more accepting back before premade formulas were on the grocer's shelf. Now, some people in our culture think that the only acceptable time to view or discuss the female breast is in the context of "SEX"! In my opinion, they have the problem! Thanks for not allowing these men to impose their backwards way of thinking on you and your baby. At our children's hospital we observe Breastfeeding Awareness Month to encourage young and sometimes easily intimidated mothers to embrace the idea of breastfeeding to promote the healthiest children that we possibly can! You want the best that nature has to offer for your little ones! Thanks for not abdicating your rights or cowering to someone's idea of a "normal" society! You are an excellent role model for other moms.
May 23, 2004 at 10:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Farneyfour (anonymous) says...
I read the article with interest. I am appalled but not surprised that someone in this day and age would be offended by breastfeeding, especially in Lawrence. I have nursed 2 babies all over this country, including a very cramped ride on the train to the top of Pike's Peak and back down! I have gotten looks before, but no one has ever said anything to me directly. I had been considering joining LAC to drop some post-baby pounds, but this makes me reconsider. Breastfeeding is not a sexual activity, it is the process of feeding a child. I have seen more skin exposed at Target shopping with my children! I dare anyone to say something to me about this! To all you breastfeeding moms out there, continue to feed your children when and where needed!
May 25, 2004 at 3:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
c_man (anonymous) says...
well, i have no problem w/ public breast feeding. of course, i'm a horny male, and like Beavis & Butthead, i really like boobies!
May 26, 2004 at 12:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
joeynotjoe (Joseph Murphy) says...
As stated multiple times earlier, this was a good blog. I worked at Whole Foods Market in Madison, WI for a year or so, and there was this sign up in the dining area that said it was a "breastfeeding friendly environment". That is good, I thought it was a good idea to have that and everything. . . but the sign was absolutely hilarious. It showed a little nipple in the cartoon picture of the mom and her child. It was just ridiculous. But funny. Anyways, I'm perfectly fine with public breastfeeding, even if I thought it was gross, I could get by fine just knowing that someone isn't feeding their child formula if they don't have to. But, isn't that so-called "walk and latch" a pain? That'd just be awkward for me. If I were capable.
May 27, 2004 at 7:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
married_kiddo (anonymous) says...
Glad that there is some light shed on this subject. We just moved to Lawrence a few months ago & I was considering joining LAC...not now! Breastfeeding is a right and a healthy one at that. Good grief, you'd think that a gym, a place promoting a healthy lifestyle, wouldn't have such hangups. Too bad there isn't anything in KS to enforce this right. In Hawaii, (where we moved from), if a bfeedign Mom is asked to move or coverup, you can report them & they will be fined (or something similiar...never had that problem). Such a shame that LAC isn't more openminded. I doubt the woman was flashing herself for exposure anyway...last thing I thought about when bfeeding was that it was anything other than a meal/snack for my daughter.
To the men that have commented on here about feeling uncomfortable: don't worry, it will all change (hopefully) when you become a Dad. My Hubby is tottally ok with it now, whereas before it would make him turn away & blush.
GREAT BLOG. Wish it could get more exposure as it is a topic that is rarely discussed.
May 31, 2004 at 10:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lelly (anonymous) says...
Thanks for a great blog. The statistics on breastfeeding worldwide are staggering. Only 30% of children are breastfed past four months. In China, recently, a major scandal was caused because of the deaths of several children due to black market formula. Compamies such as Nestle (a formula maker) market formula to mothers third world countries as better than breast milk but not even the water is safe to drink! Children die of diarrhea and malnoutrition everyday. Even in this country, formula is tacitly supported for lower income families by giving more money to those who buy formula than those who don't. Support breastfeeding in this country and throughout the world. Breastfeeding is cheap, easy, convenient, clean and natural. Go Mammas!
Lelly, mom of two healthy breastfed children.
June 2, 2004 at 7:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hawksrock (anonymous) says...
youngest child, now 17-wish i'd have nursed the older two as well!!! true story-her daddy&i had gone to a movie, first time out since babe was born.(this was THE most chilled out good baby on earth, i swear!) went to see "fatal attraction" when it came out, in lawrence; baby's being her typical good self, midway thru movie starts fussin' just a wee bit, so under a blankie&VERY discreetly she had her supper. the folks surrounding us, the ones who'd been talking in the movie theatre, editorializing about the movie aloud, eating like field hands who'd plowed 60 acres manually; of course a soft sucking noise was audible, but man i was amazed at the number of dirty looks, "tsks" of the tongue, etc!!!! omg, that to this day just makes me go "huh"? here we are, in a fairly "dirty" movie, they're all acting like pigs, and when my lil' one eats, they're disgusted??? so much for human nature eh???? lmaoooooooo
June 12, 2004 at 7:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
blondie77 (anonymous) says...
I am completely offended by LAC's actions ... but not surprised ... I worked there for a brief stint. Everyday I sat and watched tiny sportsbras with large, fake, perky boobs bounce all-over the treadmill, but you can't breastfeed!?!?
As a woman employee you could definitely feel the chauvinist attitude. I was actually told at one point in time that the best place for women employees at LAC was taking care of the babies in the nursery.
I agree ... there should be a "Nurse-In" at LAC. Too bad I am not a mother yet ... I would be there nursing with the best of them!
June 15, 2004 at 10:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JHawker (anonymous) says...
About 5 years ago a close relation of mine worked at LAC in the nursery. i often accompanied her to work and helped out in the daycare. i know there were mothers that breastfed in the same room, sitting in a comfortable padded rocking chair, or wherever they pleased. BFing is a healthy natural act that i hope more women choose when they have children - i know i will when i have kids someday. This isn't the first time LAC has made decisions that are "oafish", my relative was fired for no good reason and i know it upset lots of people, Rick Sells, owning LAC, shouldn't be in such a business if this is the attitude he has. i realize that he offered other places to do the bfing, but as mentioned before, who wants to bf in a bathroom or some uncomfortable inflatable chair? I wonder what his wife did when she had her daughter a couple years back and if rick held her back from bfing if thats what she wanted to do. i'd be at that "nurse-in" if i had a child to bring with me.
oh and there are definetely too many skintight exercise outfits that are much more offending then someone breastfeeding - if they are allowed then it's appalling that bfing is not.
July 17, 2004 at 2:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kittypapaya (anonymous) says...
As a member of LAC, I have been privy to see many of Mr. Sells "policies" and have felt offended by his what appears to explosive responses to his own emotions about what ever issues come his way. Recently, his policy on child care came out and there was no breastfeeding policy included in it, but he spent a significant amout of time basically "yelling at members", who again, are parents with children. Read between the lines on that one if you wish. Mr. Sells often leaps before for he looks and that is why he is going to loose members for not only the important breastfeeding issue, but because of his abrasiveness. By the way, I HAVE nursed in his "nursery" and the staff were great! Thanks for all the great comments and articles!
July 19, 2004 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )