As American as Apple Pie and Torture

Posted by quinno (Patrick Quinn) on January 6, 2005 at 4:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

They're hidden, David, and they're going to stay hidden.

No one reads history anymore. This process has happened a dozen times in the past century. Nominally "democratic" governments fall into the hands of fascists, very often by election--Hitler, of course, was elected by the free will of the German people--and the fascists then begin doing what fascists have done since the beginning of time: establishing concentration camps, practicing programmatic torture, excusing themselves from all previous international agreements governing the behavior of civilized states, and loudly and stridently telling the world that these horrors are not horrors, but an expression of a Higher Morality which they--and only they--understand. "Freedom on the march," "work will make you free," it's all the same.

Gonzales will sail to confirmation, and dozens of spineless swine from both sides of the aisle will rush to be photographed with him.

If history is any guide, the American populace is already divided into three broad groups. The cryptofascists, who largely approve of these changes and wish to see them proceed; this is clearly a large percentage of the adult population, possibly as high as one-quarter. A much smaller group of people, certainly less than five percent, who despise these changes and will work actively against them until they are themselves incarcerated or otherwise suppressed. And the great heaving mass of useless assholes who rise from "America's Top Model" once every four years to vote for the guy who makes the most idiotic promises.

This is a big victory for the Reds. Once the speed bump of these hearings is mastered, the Administration can get serious about dealing with its internal opponents. The next step is the establishment of a special "legal category" into which American citizens can be classified to deprive them of due process. Gonzales has almost certainly started writing the legal framework for this already. There will be Americans in the camps, which right now are being moved to "friendly" foreign countries (almost certainly Pakistan), by the end of this year.

Posted by counterlife (anonymous) on January 6, 2005 at 9:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I regularly suggest to anyone who listens that we are in the grips of a new American fascism. With a few exceptions (some family and friends) I am regarded as a nut job. I don't think most people understand the implications of Bush II and his gang of thugs for the lives they profess to love. When you compare this ignorance to their detailed knowledge and desire to discuss the most recent constestants on moronic "Survivor" (or anything like it ), or how the next KU student athelte whore will best serve his incredibly despicable pimp coach and the big PIMP for profit corporation that owns them both, I begin to think it all makes a lot of sense and that the Bushies II are just the lucky inheritors of one of the possible, but not inevitable, results of consumer capitialism (which arguably must always grow) combined with a "free" democracy. Until we figure out that the material shit actually destroys freedom I think we are trapped in this historic flow. But maybe I am wrong. In the meantime, as Quinn points out, the neofascists know exactly how to play the stupids and we can no longer count on even a semblance of a "free" press to remove the curtain. So now, you people who think about these matters, what do we do?

Posted by quinno (Patrick Quinn) on January 7, 2005 at 6:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

First you have to decide what side you're on. Ninety-five percent of the population is either actively fascist or sitting this out. If that's you, do nothing. (Except what the government tells you to do, of course....)

If you're a free American citizen, on the other hand, you are ethically and constitutionally obliged to fight the authoritarian revolution being promulgated by the Bush Administration and the so-called "Republican Party." Write letters. Demand a return to constitutional government. That's a start. A lot more will be required--we're going to have to find some Dems and independents w/ the courage to stand up for the American way of life. This isn't Europe, the only way to beat these evil bastards is at the polls and in the courts. They have virtually every court in the country in their pocket already, including, alas, the Nine Spent Volcanos, but we have to find lower-court federal judges prepared to honor their oaths.

We've allowed this to go too far, and we're starting way behind; that, too, is typical of authoritarian takeovers of previously democratic governments. Tough shit. Better now then later. The Gonzales confirmation is the biggest turning point in American government since... since I don't know when. McCarthy was an alcoholic clown, the next thing to a functional illiterate, a typical representative of the concentration-camp mentality (alive today, he'd be the President's right-hand man), but the population in the 1950s was much smarter and much braver than are we, and they didn't have much trouble bitch-slapping Tail-gunner Joe into DTs and obscurity. These guys are much, much, much more dangerous, and have already done much, much, much more damage, and of course half the population is not only behind them, but angry that they haven't gone far enough. The Reds will not be satisfied until every trace of transparency, decency and constitutional restraint has been eliminated from America. (I cannot imagine the astonishment and delight of the good folks over at Halliburton when they gradually realized that half the population of the country is cheering on the company's ongoing rape of the Treasury.)

So pick a side. Decide where you want to be in the history books 100 years from now. Decide whether or not you give a shit about the United States of America. If you do, send Kerry a letter, and get your friends to do the same._It's a start._ And then we'll figure out the next step.

Maybe McCain...

Posted by loc_kaw (anonymous) on January 7, 2005 at 7:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Maybe McCain? I hope you're not about to suggest to make special alliances with him. It's not that I think he's a thug in Bush's class, but look at all of the positions he holds--and yet he actively campaigned for Bush. Something tells me that he's a narcissist (what you might call a typical career politican) who's just hoping to get the 2008 nomination. Someone who doesn't hold any real strong convictions. Otherwise how can somebody with his great reputation be so cowed? At best, when you look at his progressive stance on so many issues, he is going under some pretty major denial about the direction this country is going.
Of course in our tabloid-intellectually-lazy culture it is expected that our representatives, along with manstream jounalists, be the most indoctrinated--i.e., brainwashed. When you look at the history of successful fascist movements you always end up asking the question, "how can so many good people be under such denial?" Maybe fascism is further off than you say, but...how can so many good people be in such denial?

Posted by quinno (Patrick Quinn) on January 7, 2005 at 7:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

So, how many concentration camps does it take for fascism to count as "close"? This is an utterly pure litmus test, zero wiggle room, no dissembling is possible. It is the definitional formal nature of fascist regimes that they build concentration camps for their enemies and torture the people they put in the camps. That's it. All the rest--the comic-book uniforms, the mass rallies, the secret police--is ancillary.

Yr spot-on about McCain's utter failure so far. I have never been more shocked and disappointed in any political figure in my lifetime. But he's an essentially moral man, and for most of his life has been one of the most admirable of all Americans. The US Navy had two service saints back in the day: Denton and McCain. McCain personally spent years in a POW camp indistinguishable from the ones being built by the Bush Administration--well, that's unfair to the Vietnamese, because they tortured, but didn't engage in sexual torture--so he knows better than any of us exactly what's happening. Like the President, he bears an extraordinarily distinguished heritage--his father was one of Halsey's tigers and helped build the carrier navy that won the war in the Pacific--and unlike the president, McCain has made long, repeated, conscientious efforts to live up to that legacy. He's wavered, p'haps fallen, but he can be reclaimed. He's a real American, one of the few w/ the stature to cow the howling monkeys.

Anyway we have to TRY. We can't sit around jacking off on online boards, we have to DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS. The Republic is in greater peril than at any time in its history. WRITE A LETTER FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. Stand up!

Posted by ladylaw (Terry Bush) on January 7, 2005 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If you want to make an impact, my suggestion (for what it is worth) is to (a) write individual letters, not send form letters and (b) not send them JUST to individuals who are already on the band wagon. These suggestions come from someone who has for decades been involved in political processes. My experience tells me that form letters are much easier to ignore or discount. If people aren't able/willing to express their own view points, the readers are usually less able/willing to give them much weight. Additionally, while Sen. Kerry may enjoy hearing from his supporters, his walking into the hearings with 100 FAX's (all stating the same exact thing) has less impact then the same concerns being raised by someone who is not so obviously going to speak out against almost everything the Bush administration does. In other words, send the FAX's to someone who's outrage cannot be accused of being fueled by "sour grapes". Just my 2 cents....for what it is worth

Posted by ladylaw (Terry Bush) on January 7, 2005 at 11:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

P.S. Lew Ferguson, a an old Kansas news paper guy (and political junkie) said recently (at a forum held at the Dole Institute) that the people who win most elections are almost always those who APPEAR (to most people) to be nicer. I think he was probably right. Moral of story; parties shouldn't run the most qualified candidate. They should run the candidate that appeals to most people.

Posted by quinno (Patrick Quinn) on January 7, 2005 at 11:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Don't post--write the damned letter. The Gonzales nomination is the Rubicon for a free United States of America. This guy is nothing more than Martin Bormann's idiot cousin. Making him Attorney General is quite literally the end of all American freedoms.

Sometime in the next two years, when the Americans being shoveled into the camps aren't blacks or gays or Democrats or Jews (or whoever tops the Bolsheviks' Hit Parade at that moment), but good ol' Joe Bubbas who made the list because of the actions of a relative or an indiscreet word on an online board, a good percentage of the dim bulbs screeching support for the abandonment of constitutional government are going to have an epiphany, spin precisely 180 degrees and "rediscover" their civil rights. That will be excruciatingly entertaining to watch, but by then it will be far, far too late to save the day. It has to start RIGHT NOW.

History says most people, of whatever political persuasion, will do nothing. In every single previous case of totalitarians hijacking a democracy, most of the citizens sat around mouths agape and paid no attention to what was happening around them. DON'T BE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.

Don't underestimate these people. They're Bolshies, pure and simple, Reds in every sense of the word. The only significant difference is that Lenin's bunch was honest about their intentions; they didn't cackle about "limited government" when they built their camps. Citizenship is not a free ride. There are obligations on every citizen of this country, and the first and foremost of those obligations is not to "fight terror" or cut taxes or any of the other swill poring out of the White house--it's to protect and defend the Constitution. From "all enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC."

These radical goons are destroying the greatest democracy in the history of the world, and by and large they're doing it for money. The fact that they flim-flammed 60 million couch potatoes is just a demonstration that most humans, wherever they're born, aren't fit to live in a free country and aren't smart enough to find their own ass with both hands and a Seeing Eye dog. All the responsibility here rests on the rest of us.

Don't let the Bolsheviks take away your country.

Posted by davidryan (David Ryan) on January 7, 2005 at 11:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Likely, many Americans will poo-poo this claim, but I've a feeling we are very much where the Germans were in the 30's.

And that feeling makes me want to vomit.

Posted by quinno (Patrick Quinn) on January 7, 2005 at 11:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

WRITE THE LETTER! TODAY! NOW!

Posted by ladylaw (Terry Bush) on January 7, 2005 at 12:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I didn't say that I wouldn't write a letter. I was just trying to be helpful for those of you who want to have an impact. Signing a form letter and faxing it to someone who is already on your side is not a very effective way of getting your point across where it counts!

Posted by quinno (Patrick Quinn) on January 7, 2005 at 1:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

OK, fine, now is certainly not the time to waste time arguing about what kind of letter to write. Any letter is better than none.

Look, people: They're going to confirm this guy, and that's it. The End. Kiss yr constitutional freedoms goodbye. We're facing the most extreme threat to American freedom since the same gang of thugs tried to hijack the government in the '50s with a lot of ignorant horseshit about "Communism." Most of those guys wouldn't have been able to tell a Communist from a vegetarian; it wasn't about Communism, it was about taking over the country. Leftists typically inflate the magnitude of that threat. The relevant Presidents were Truman and Eisenhower; neither one of those guys were about to let a bunch of fascist assholes take over the country.

This time THE PRESIDENT IS LEADING THE CHARGE. The camps are George W. Bush's camps; they were built on his order and he wants to build a lot more of them. He's already started moving "detainees" from the places the media knows about to places the media can't reach-- i.e., Pakistan.

This must be stopped at all costs. Don't get distracted. Don't get off-message.

Withdraw the Gonzales nomination. Tear down the camps. Or impeach.

Posted by niles (anonymous) on January 8, 2005 at 2:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Experience tells me that your perception of the world, at least in the context of politics, appears to be substantially skewed by an unconscious gravitation towards having a cause. But don't worry, everyone sees the world with perfect clarity at 23.

Bush's 'fascism' extends only as far as his affinity for jesus, that much is probably defensible. But the key is that Bush isn't killing Americans.

Terrorism is an extension of religious fanaticism, which is (and has been) arguably the biggest problem in the world. The catholics have contributed to it for hundreds of years, and now the islamofascists are having a go with a similar interpretation of euphoric righteousness. We have no option but to suppress them until some moderate muslim with some wits about him (sorry to the women, but you don't have a fat chance with mainstream islam) steps up and presents a clear islamic alternative to the anti-western, its-everyones-fault-but-ours mentaility. What the world needs an islamic version of 'Luther' to set the course for civilized islamic integration into the modern world. Maybe then, we'd be on the road to a universal frowning upon atrocities such as catholic molestation and islamic suicide bombing.

Once this happens, i'll be on board with you to scrutinize the right and keep them in check. Keep up the good work, but stay on target.

Posted by Snoop (anonymous) on January 9, 2005 at 10:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You know I bet you guys are really decent fellas after a few beers, but just as in our rants during the election season your holier than thou, egotistical judgmental rantings parallel the very people
you see as evil and corrupt.
Let ole Snoop be blunt, the American people you want to rally frankly does not give a fuck about Gonzales is trying to be Attorney General. Gonzales’s opinions on torture were opinions on a law he did not write. And to be honest most of us won’t lose any sleep on the torture of a bunch a blood thirsty ignorant fucks.
And Ydog your constant back handed bitch slaps a the Jesus believers wears thin and hollow.
I’m repeating myself but I have said before your literary sick up your ass condescending egobabble amongst the leftist is why you and your type are relegated to blog rantings and Sunday morning talking head bitchfest.
As for “Niles Crane”, you seem to fit right in. Catholics as terrorists? ok dude I suppose you are a Catholic school depressed soul.
Not just Catholics but some Protestants have also given the world some bad (terrorizing) moments too (E.g. Salem witch trials, Hitler's spree [granted, he was Catholic to begin with, but hated the church and in his reign of terror did all he could to destroy it], Stalin's regime. Etc.) So you lump only Catholics and extreme Islamist together as being examples of religiously affiliated terrorists.... and no other faiths have had such moments or problems?
As I have suggest to many on Da Blogs its easy to be an alter ego here and malign people and their faith but do you have the balls to do the verbal bitch slap of your co-workers, friends, family
or stand on the corner with the hemp dude?
Isn't it more intellectually and historically accurate to merely note that extreme fanaticism of any kind (including or particularly the types based upon religious beliefs) can lead to atrocities committed in the name of a greater (perceived) good? Isn't the evil of terrorism brought about by persons who strongly believe in the need to kill (or destroy/conquer) anyone who doesn't agree with their views? And doesn't that kind of thing become possible based upon almost any type of religion, or political ideology?
Pat the 23 year olds on the head and blame “unconscious gravitation?” How fucken old are you?
And when did you get all of the damm answers?
Y’all need to get a freaken grip.

Posted by jd (anonymous) on January 10, 2005 at 10:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Right on Snoop!

davidryan you need to bone up on your history . . . and get a freaken grip.

Posted by counterlife (anonymous) on January 10, 2005 at 9:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What I have done so far: I joined and became an active member of my local chapter of the ACLU. They are really trying to fight this and they fight for everyone's Constitution and Bill of Rights, even those I might find disgusting. Apart from that, I write the letters, talk to everyone who will listen and those who don't. It ain't much but it is all I've got at this point. I don't want to wait until it is too late to stand up, except before the secret Ashcroft/Gonzales/Bush/Cheney tribunal, where many people who are not even remotely "blood thirsty igonorant fucks" (to borrow one of Snoop's typically organic phrases) have already been disappeared. Do some research and tell people what you find. Talk, write, talk some more. Contribute your talent to the distribution of contrary views. They really are naked, but we must point it out.

Posted by jd (anonymous) on January 11, 2005 at 9:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hypothetical - just out of curiosity . . .

Suppose the U.S. has captured an Al Qaeda member who has vital information about a planned terrorist attack - say a small nuke in New York. The time is quickly counting down to the explosion which is estimated to kill twice as many people as the tsunami in Asia did.

Now, this guy is not part of any government's standing army, he wears no uniform of any country's armed forces. He is for all intents and purposes an illegal combatant who has killed civilians & military personal indiscriminately - a saboteur/spy if you will. This of-course means that he does not fall under the protection of the Geneva convention.

Do you truly believe that no coercive means should be used to get this prisoner to open up? I'm not talking extremeness here just making him very uncomfortable, e.g. lack of sleep, food, psychological stress and maybe something to make him think the worst is yet to come.

Or do you believe that he should go through due process - through the courts with miranda warnings, an appointed attorney and with no law enforcement/military personnel having access to question him?

Posted by davidryan (David Ryan) on January 11, 2005 at 12:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Better question, JD: just as hypothetical: say they picked up YOU, thinking you had information about a nuke.

Trouble is, you don't have any such information.

Are you willing to be tortured? Would you, under such circumstances, like for their to be some restraints on what can be done?

Or are you willing to sacrifice yourself -- perhaps being tortured to death, or to an extent that renders you absolutely broken -- just because the prosecutors and police believe you're a threat, even if you're not?

And in a well-worn tradition, I'm just trying to goad people to fully follow, not tepidly stumble after, the remarkably fine Judeo-Christian moral and ethical heritage we have.

And fyi: i've not been 23 for a good long time.

Posted by ladylaw (Terry Bush) on January 11, 2005 at 12:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I come from a long line of pacifists. I can't personally even kill spiders. And I greatly abhor any mistreatment of any human being. That being said, survival sometimes requires some awful choices. As an example, there are now few existing Native American tribes whose ancestors did not actively war against the invading white men, by any and all means. While those who fought back did not succeed in stopping the loss of their land and way of life, their people still exist and are recognized still. Thus, while we may wring our hands, fret and worry about the rights of many that are being lost and trampled, if there really is a perilous threat to life and liberty, as many believe, you can bet your life that the majority of those who feel threatened will do all they can to fight back or feel safer. If you want to change that, or help those who are being held in these camps, you may want to consider helping to uncover the extent and nature of terrorist infliltration into this country. You may be surprised at what you discover!

Posted by davidryan (David Ryan) on January 11, 2005 at 12:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

JD -- which history are you suggesting I need to bone up on? I'm quite interested to see what your specific suggestion might be.

Posted by ladylaw (Terry Bush) on January 11, 2005 at 12:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

PS - Niles - small c Catholic means Universal: "of, relating to, or forming the church universal" http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va...
While capital letter C Catholic more commonly refers to the Roman Catholic church. We assume you meant to slight the Roman Catholic church by using the small letter c, but it may be that you were referring to all Christian churches? And if you really think that Catholics are terrorists, you must be a huge fan of "chick tracts".... http://www.chick.com/

Posted by jd (anonymous) on January 12, 2005 at 4:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

davidryan - why is it you can't answer the question?

DavidRyan said, "I've a feeling we are very much where the Germans were in the 30's."

Really now David, you should read more history...

If you can purge your system of the koolaid and take your blinders off, you just may see the value in looking at things from many different angles.

Posted by ladylaw (Terry Bush) on January 13, 2005 at 3:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thought you and yours would like this...

The 23rd Sigh

Bush is my shepherd; I dwell in want.
He maketh logs to be cut down in national forests.
He leadeth trucks into the still wilderness.
He restoreth my fears.
He leadeth me in the paths of international disgrace for his ego's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of pollution and war,
I will find no exit, for thou art in office.
Thy tax cuts for the rich and thy media control, they discomfort me.
Thou preparest an agenda of deception in the presence of thy religion.
Thou anointest my head with foreign oil.
My health insurance runneth out.
Surely megalomania and false patriotism shall follow me all the days of thy term,
And my jobless child shall dwell in my basement forever.